Doctors on Front Line of Worst-Hit City in World Say It’s Time to End Shutdown

Say excessive fear is killing their heart attack patients

The doctor looked around the unusually quiet intensive care unit, catching his breath and taking stock for the first time in what felt like weeks.

Dr Samir Farhat’s hospital in New York had been at the epicentre of the coronavirus outbreak in the US. Now, the ICU was almost back to normal and he found himself wondering when the city would be too.

“It’s not often I agree with Trump, but I think that we should open up on May 15,” said Dr Farhat, who runs the emergency room at New York Community Hospital as well as working as a physician at Mount Sinai Brooklyn.

The New York governor’s three-phase plan to end the lockdown will see the city next week begin slowly easing restrictions that have paralysed the Big Apple for months.

But Dr Farhat and doctors at other major New York hospitals who spoke to The Telegraph said their experience on the front line of the crisis had, somewhat unexpectedly, convinced them the city should reopen without delay.

“Hospital census is right down, admissions are too,” Dr Farhat said. “Opening up now is a calculated risk we need to take.”

Dr Farhat, who specialises in pulmonology, worries that he has not seen the cases of severe asthma, heart attacks and strokes that usually fill his ER beds.

His concern is that the virus has stopped them from seeking medical attention, an unfortunate – and sometimes fatal – consequence of the stay-at-home strategy.

The number of 911 ambulance calls declined to 3,320 in late April, down from a peak of 6,527 on March 30, according to New York Fire Department data. The figure marks its lowest call volume in years.

Dr Daniel Murphy, chairman of the Department of Emergency Medicine at St Barnabas Hospital in The Bronx who has treated dozens of coronavirus patients, вземания “inordinate fear” has guided the public response.

“While Covid-19 is serious, fear of it is being over-amplified. The public needs to understand that the vast majority of infected people do quite well,” , каза той.

He said he noticed the “wave had crested” at St Barnabas on April 7 – three weeks after the statewide shutdown was ordered. “It was a discrete, noticeable event. Stretchers became available, and the number of arriving Covid-19 patients dropped below the number discharged, transferred or deceased,” , каза той.

“This was striking, because the community I serve is poor. Most work in ‘essential,’ low-paying jobs where distancing isn’t easy. Nevertheless, the wave passed over us, peaked and subsided.

“The way this transpired tells me the ebb and flow had more to do with the natural course of the outbreak than it did with the lockdown,” , каза той.

His observation appeared to be supported by figures released on Wednesday by Governor Andrew Cuomo, which showed the majority of people who are still being hospitalised with the virus across the state were staying at home and not essential workers.

The survey of 1,269 patients admitted to 113 hospitals over three recent days – the first such look at people getting seriously ill despite six weeks of severe social distancing – confounded expectations.

Retirees accounted for 37 per cent of the people hospitalised. Another 46 per cent were unemployed. Almost three-quarters were 51 years or older. Only 17 per cent were working.

Just four per cent were still using public transportation in their daily life, though it also noted that information on transit use was only available for about half the people surveyed.

The data has prompted questions of how effective the lockdown has been and for how much longer it will be necessary.

“Covid-19 is also more prevalent than we think. Many New Yorkers already have the infection, whether they are aware of it or not,” Dr Murphy said, referring to a recent antibody sample study which showed that one-in-five residents of New York City had likely already had the virus.

“As of today, over 43 per cent of those tested are positive in The Bronx. We are developing a significant degree of natural herd immunity,” he said. “Distancing works, but I am skeptical that it is playing as predominant a role as many think.”

As states across the US began opening up this week – with mixed results – New York is set to remain closed until the middle of the month.

Mr Cuomo said the state can only progress to “Phase One” once seven requirements were met, including recording a 14-day decline in hospitalisations; an availability rate for intensive care unit beds of at least 30 per cent; and at least 30 working contact tracers per 100,000 residents.

So far it has only met three and is some way off meeting the other four, raising the prospect it could be under severe restrictions for weeks, if not months, to come.

Bill de Blasio, New York’s mayor, warned it looked as if life would not return to normal until September at the earliest.

Virologists and other health experts, however, are expressing growing dread over what they say is an all-but-certain second wave of deaths and infections that could force states to clamp back down.

“We’re risking a backslide that will be intolerable,” said Dr Ian Lipkin of Columbia University’s Center for Infection and Immunity.

The US has recorded over 70,000 deaths and 1.2 million confirmed infections.

This week, the researchers behind a widely cited model from the University of Washington nearly doubled their projection of deaths in the US to around 134,000 through early August, in large part because of the easing of state stay-at-home orders.

Dr Lipkin said preventing outbreaks will require aggressive contact tracing powered by armies of public health workers hundreds of thousands of people strong, which the US currently does not have.

Dr Farhat said he thought a second wave would not be as bad as the first, in part, he offered, because of what doctors have learned. “We are much better prepared now, and have started to figure out what works and what doesn’t,” he said.

“There is a much greater immunity rate now too,” he said, while the elderly population, particularly those in nursing homes, has already been disproportionately affected.

Both talk about the serious longer term effects of a prolonged shutdown. “The lasting impact is what worries me the most,” said Dr Murphy.

The lockdown has decimated the economy, a factor both doctors said could hurt both physical and mental health and should not be downplayed.

One in five working New York City residents will lose their jobs by the end of next month because of the avirus, Comptroller Scott Stringer predicted in an alarming new fiscal report.

This quarter will see a 22 per cent unemployment rate — the highest in the city’s postwar history.

Peter Singer, a bioethics professor at Princeton, said officials need to think about the consequences other than in terms of deaths. “I think the consequences are horrific, in terms of unemployment in particular, which has been shown to have a very serious effect on well-being, and particularly for poorer people.

“Yes, people will die if we open up, but the consequences of not opening up are so severe that maybe we’ve got to do it anyway.” he told the New York Times.

The trade-off is already being made for essential workers, the majority of whom are low-wage. The calculations around reopening are, to some extent, about how comfortable we are with the professional classes becoming part of the trade-off.

The doctors the Telegraph spoke to stressed it was not simply a matter of reopening overnight.

“Life has to change, we don’t just spring back to normal,” Dr Farhat said. “We need to wear masks as a habit, scale up testing, and really consider whether we strictly need to travel.”

Mr Coumo has already warned there will have to be a “new normal” after the lockdown is eased, rather than a return to life as New Yorkers knew it.

“We can’t wait for a vaccine that may not come for two years, if it comes at all,” Dr Farhat said. A report out this week revealed a third of Americans would not get a vaccine even if there was one available.

“We just have to figure out a way to live with this,” the doctor said.

Източник: The Telegraph

Запиши се
Известие за
guest
253 Коментари
-старите
Най-новите Повечето гласували
Вградени отзиви
Вижте всички коментари

stmccrea
stmccrea
Преди 9 месеца

So if there are so many people not seeking medical care for critical conditions, why have the death rates from other causes DECLINED? If people are seeking less essential medical care, shouldn’t the death rate INCREASE? Given that receiving medical care is now the third leading cause of death in the USA, is it possible that people are dying LESS because they are getting LESS medical care, and that such medical care is therefore not only not essential, but in many cases destructive or even deadly?

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  stmccrea

every death is a corona death.
on the other hand, if you don’t go to hospital they can’t kill you there.

RolandTheThompsonGunner
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

Volunteer to do the autopsies then

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  RolandTheThompsonGunner

that makes no sense whatsoever. coroners should.

RolandTheThompsonGunner
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

No, that’s an invite for you to do one or two.

By the time you will have gotten done with the first one, run all the labs, done the microbiology work, stained the slides , and done all of the conclusions for the paper work and findings, what ever your mind set was before that, will, be seriously altered.

stmccrea
stmccrea
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

Both seem likely to contribute to these interesting statistics.

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  stmccrea

only 1 should :)))

RolandTheThompsonGunner
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  stmccrea

Not much on thinking in a critical manner are you?

How about putting some cited references next to your , opinions?

Don’t suppose it’s ever occurred to you that people who have died at home are still being collected up? Those are the ones who had heart attacks, terminal cancer , strokes, MVA’s (car wrecks), GSW’s ( gun show wounds) of varying kinds, et.al.

The stats are out there but they’re not complete and this is by no way or means, done and over.

stmccrea
stmccrea
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  RolandTheThompsonGunner

The phenomenon is worldwide and is not in contention. Something is causing it, whether it’s statistical manipulation or misattribution or some other danger reducing or something else. But it’s definitely happening, and I’m not going to do your reserach for you on that point. It’s a fascinating phenomenon. Naturally, I don’t know any more than you do why it’s happening, but you have to admit, it’s a very interesting result.

And people who are “collected up” are still reported as dead, you know.

RolandTheThompsonGunner
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  stmccrea

Off hand, I don’t suppose you’ve bother to run any rNA models? Or maybe looked at the enzymatic actions or reactions on a molecular level have you?

G, A, T , C

now when you observe the seemingly random pattern to this virus as contrasted against the SARS virus as a whole, the molecular level of occurrence is what should, attract and key your attention to.

It’s one enzyme . Question is, which one and from which of the 4 is it being generated out of ?

Dead is dead. Doesn’t matter if it’s related to the cytokine storm or, from ARDS , or from a cardiac event.

Until we arrive at one standard of testing, we’ll continue to flail at the water until the sky turns black.
And just so you’re aware, I have serious, objection to some presumed leader pushing a drug, and then making a flat assed lie he’s taking it when in reality, he’s quite possibly, not, taking the drug and if he is then I wish to hell he’d triple the dosage and fall over.

This is being nice. You haven’t slung out any insults. As long as that continues, neither will I.

stmccrea
stmccrea
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  RolandTheThompsonGunner

Not sure how that answers the question of why the overall death rate from other causes has dropped significantly while Covid deaths have increased. I agree with your statements, though. Trump can say whatever he says, and I don’t believe him, because he constantly lies, but he ought to know that other people listen to him as if he has some magical channel to wisdom, and his statements have the power to do some serious damage.

RolandTheThompsonGunner
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  stmccrea

There’s several things going on all at once.
Genetics would be one avenue worth looking into , and from doing the reading , it would appear as though that may be having some influence on it. It would follow then that, people of color, without regard to present ethnicity , could have that one enzymatic trigger that allows for the rNA to encode that specific enzyme , or enzyme’s that react to a specific encoding .
It seems as though to me, from having gone over the slides and seeing the varying results , there are predisposing features in nearly every segment of the population. Some are more inclined to be affected while others are less so, for the time being.
The one thing this virus is not doing is, mutating out once or twice and then lessening it’s effects. In some cases, the mutated variants are presenting themselves again, with an even stronger rNA encoding, which is the item that is making this a very virulent issue.

As to your assertion regarding the ” leader”; not knowing your present political stance, I’m hopeful he’ll take a huge does of it and have the ground rush up to meet him at maximum velocity.

I’m hopeful at some point, before he is ousted , some member of his staff will have the balls to step forward with tapes, notes, memos, notes, something on which to hang this sonofabitch with. Even Korean War vets I’ve spoke to are aghast at what he has done and is doing and will continue to do.

His bantering with the idea of exploding a nuclear device in a below ground test ( I hope- certainly not an above ground test) , is, to me at least, clearly demonstrating just how screwed up this mans thinking is.

He’s dangerous to the country and to the world.

Playing patty cake with China one month and then spinning right around pointing fingers and saber rattling will get people killed.

We haven’t had an assassination attempt in this country in over 35 years.
I’m pretty sure the Secret Service has been working alot of overtime to follow along in all of those avenues. To bad one or more of them simply just look the other way and allow it to happen.

stmccrea
stmccrea
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  RolandTheThompsonGunner

I feel you! Though eliminating Trump won’t eliminate the danger of his mode of thinking and action. The door is open and a lot of his GOP compatriots are working at imitating him in a less obvious and less obnoxious manner. Not that I’m seeing a lot from the Democrats that has me feeling confident in their ability to set things to rights, either. I’m pretty discouraged.

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  stmccrea

covid is now the only cause of death 😉

stmccrea
stmccrea
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

Or if it is anywhere around, it must be the cause, even if the person just had a heart attack!

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  stmccrea

orкоментар изображение

stmccrea
stmccrea
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

Well, he’s not wearing a mask, so…

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  stmccrea

????

Saint Jimmy (Russian American)
Свети Джими (руски американец)
Преди 9 месеца

Great beatdown of mensch, steelpirate, and associated morons in this thread. Many thanks to starfire, Elizabeth, max, and others….

Starfire
Starfire
Преди 9 месеца

Mensch has changed sides.

Saint Jimmy (Russian American)
Свети Джими (руски американец)
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Starfire

Did he get all the way to Damascus? Just kidding. Maybe it was some experience he had that caused it. I blocked him a couple of years ago and couldn’t tell.

Starfire
Starfire
Преди 9 месеца

I guess you don’t know this but he lives with me, and has for four-plus years. We met on disqus, on Common Dreams in late 2013. I sponsored him for Permanent Residency in Canada, and he was just granted it. Bummer that the border is closed. Now he has cross-border privileges(supposedly) and can’t even go visit his two adult daughters.
I told the Mensch that he would very much benefit from taking Philosophy 101, Critical Thinking…I know I did. And he was willing to be my student, it appears. He also is a much-needed financial support to me. I had to retire quite young due to family issues. It’s a long story. Liz is familiar with it.
Enuf said for now. Best, SF.

Saint Jimmy (Russian American)
Свети Джими (руски американец)
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Starfire

Wow. Good luck Starfire. You’re a better man than I.

Starfire
Starfire
Преди 9 месеца

Мерси.

Starfire
Starfire
Преди 9 месеца

Here’s another little secret that only a few of us disqus posters are aware of. @kootenayhillbilly:disqus is someone who I was with for a long time in real life. We raised four children together. One his, and three mine. He is a good man.

Saint Jimmy (Russian American)
Свети Джими (руски американец)
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Starfire

I gathered you and Hillbilly were close. Yeah, he seems like a nice person.

Starfire
Starfire
Преди 9 месеца

Well you’re a smart cookie, so I’m not surprised. You had that pandemic scam pegged from the go-get.

Saint Jimmy (Russian American)
Свети Джими (руски американец)
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Starfire

Thanks. I guess I’ve developed some kind of intuition from 38 years of observing government types and 20 years of watching big media from a much more objective point of view. When the tone gets shrill and constant, look out, something isn’t right.

Starfire
Starfire
Преди 9 месеца

“When the tone gets shrill and constant, look out, something isn’t right.” Oh yeah..The big picture just doesn’t compute.

eri aka expect resistance
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Starfire

Congrats on the PR.

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца

Ah, the grave diggers’ finest, unabashed xenophobe; so full of himself, and white nationalist arrogance, he could explode at any moment.

The comfort-corrupted, entitled (to be crass and crazy) middle class, conspiracy-theorist* pulled it by his own bootstraps, indifferent to world-suffering and the arch foe of liberals and the American working class. . .which explains the Maxwell appeal. . .

“But I hate the system”

You’re infected with the system.

(Had to go SP on a guy like you.
You deserve it🌚)

https://youtu.be/RmacIBYslr0

newestbeginning
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Колективист

Oh man, please never go all SP on me! LOL

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца

I couldn’t do that, like that, all day. I have mild hypertension.😀

I’ll let The Pirate do it.

Jimbo
Джимбо
Преди 9 месеца

Bill Gates, Fauci, the WHO . A bill signed into law way before the so called Pandemic even occurred. This group of Globalists are sick. The top down power and control mechanism is incredible. A mask will not stop a virus. And by the way, there is no pandemic. They are laughing at your stupidity. Ignore these idiots. Following orders would be fine but this is a Globalist hoax. https://153news.net/watch_video.php?v=OU57HKWKX713

Andrew Lazarus
Андрей Лазар
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Джимбо

Would you elaborate on why a mask doesn’t stop a virus? Please refer to the many studies showing it does in your answer.

Jimbo
Джимбо
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Андрей Лазар

A virus is to small for the fabric in a mask to stop. The next issue is that even if it could (which it can’t) the masks do not fit up close enough and leak around the nose. The other issue is that like the inside of your nose they stay warm and moist . That damp warm environment is a perfect place to grow bacteria and viruses.

Andrew Lazarus
Андрей Лазар
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Джимбо

You didn’t address all the studies that disagree with you.

The damp environment—and masks do need cleaning—is the water vapor that contains the virus. That’s why the fabric helps contain the virus even though the virus can fit through it.

Why not try again, but first read the various studies that disagree with you.

Jimbo
Джимбо
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Андрей Лазар

So the Media is your master. I certainly have experience in regarding breathing and lung protection. The mask is a breeding area for a virus and for every type of bacteria. Before any mask can be of any benefit it must fit a person properly. Those areas around the top of the nose are loose and allow particles to enter. This Hoax is worse than the Anthrax scare. So use your head for a change. This whole thing is a huge lie and will cause much suffering starvation and death.

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца

Том
‘Compassion’, the NHS and faux-socialism are being wickedly used as a cover for fascist objectives, where the safety and support of the vulnerable are whipped away because these people don’t make money for the masters. Shame on those supporting the government in any way (and, yes, I’m afraid at the moment that includes ‘honouring’ the NHS and veterans) and shame on the businesses colluding.

коментирайте

https://off-guardian.org/2020/05/12/opposing-lockdown-is-not-profits-before-people/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=f363ee881cdb051a466489af70dede43e24fe1c0-1589383157-0-ATnlXa7d9PLCVFnxmMOUNCOqUkqZtpqwU3S-Z-zMtjaNC0BRSoS8ahHzLCMvC2Y8tNWGOToC-sALBkExy8toxBZL_NDHdj4rkilXVvNF5e4-xONL1bzNoEkjUSR114oZQZV04mV1EwxxX3W_UbGnhy1OIMHNFh56vVi5T740mKJdtRvLxmdb9kgoytmtr4YI3pFQ8k0uUGk4eIrRSNxqaZ6XTDN6p-vVCOiJjNWv70K-_4pEw2K3p3wEOFm0yVkf5N8SDpfmG8M5vXJP0OYnc_QXM6GZ6bNeU6wjy_ijTcfg7SCKmWDhwRwBLsItick3_VaUvw6Q24KZ4ljt1bVcu2snArAhb0G-8L85GUz_8hqD

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца

and then their death certs will say covid.

cechas vodobenikov
чечас водобеников
Преди 9 месеца

in America the conservatives protest against covid fascism—in Europe the left opposes covid martial law

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца

in europe the left bays for restrictions along with everybody else.

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

Good thing you don’t, eh?

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Колективист

it doesn’t help me much. living in a ghost town, not knowing who is safe to talk to/go near.
like living in the invasion of the body snatchers but with fewer ”people” about.
not even allowed to drive to a cliff to jump of off.

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

“. . .not even allowed to drive to a cliff to jump of off.”

Loss of personal ‘freedom’?

Lol

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Колективист

you’d rather live in prison for fear of a cold?

Kapricorn4
Каприкорн4
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

Some people commit a felony in October order to receive a jail sentence, where they are warm and well fed, instead of being homeless, and freezing to death.

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Каприкорн4

what an indictment of capitalism!
but i said A cold!

newestbeginning
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

huh?? didn’t you just say you “don’t know who is safe to talk to/go near”? What’s the big deal; after all it’s just a cold, eh?…/s

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

Actually, I’d rather promote this:

“. . .One of the key achievements of the very rich has been to delegitimise the idea of state institutions. In the West, the typical attitude has been to attack the government as an enemy of progress; to shrink government institutions–except the military–has been the goal. Any country with a robust government and state structure has been characterised as ‘authoritarian’. But this crisis has shaken that view. Countries with intact state institutions that have been able to handle the pandemic–such as China–cannot be easily dismissed as authoritarian; a general understanding has come that these governments and their state institutions are instead efficient. It is impossible to make the case any longer that this sclerotic and hollowed-out bourgeois state form is more efficient than a system of state institutions that are made efficient by the process of trial and error.”

“What we have learned not only from China, but also from Cuba, Venezuela, and the Indian state of Kerala, is that if a society is organised by people’s organisations (trade unions, women’s organisations, student unions, youth organisations, cooperatives), then they have the capacity for public action. An organised society is one that builds the ability of people to learn how to act collectively in normal times–even more so in a crisis. The socialist project is only partly developed through the institutions of the state; the other part–the most vital part–is for society to be organised and energised and to be prepared for the everyday and extraordinary work of social construction.

As the global pandemic grew in scope, Tricontinental: Institute for Social Research and the International Peoples’ Assembly (IPA), a platform of over two hundred organisations from almost a hundred countries, opened a discussion on the crisis and on the most dire and immediate needs for the global working class. The document that we produced includes a sixteen-point programme based on the experience of struggle and governance that has emerged from these movements, unions, and political parties. More than a debate about each separate policy and point, the programme initiates a debate about the very nature of how to understand the state and its institutions.

Immediate suspension of all work, except essential medical and logistical personnel and those required to produce and distribute food and necessities, without any loss of wages. The state must assume the cost of the wages for the period of the quarantine.
Health, food supply, and public safety must be maintained in an organised manner. Emergency grain stocks must be immediately released for distribution amongst the poor.
Schools must all be suspended.
Immediate socialization of hospitals and medical centres so that they do not worry about the profit motive as the crisis unfolds. These medical centres must be under the control of the government’s health campaign.
Immediate nationalization of pharmaceutical companies, and immediate international cooperation amongst them to find a vaccine and easier testing devices. Abolishment of intellectual property in the medical field.
Immediate testing of all people. Immediate mobilization of tests and support for medical personnel who are at the frontlines of this pandemic.
Immediate speed-up of production for materials necessary to deal with the crisis (testing kits, masks, respirators).
Immediate closure of global financial markets.
Immediate gathering of the finances to prevent the bankruptcy of governments.
Immediate cancellation of all non-corporate debt.
Immediate end to all rent and mortgage payments, as well as an end to evictions; this includes the immediate provision of adequate housing as a basic human right. Decent housing must be a right for all citizens guaranteed by the state.
Immediate absorption of all utility payments by the state–water, electricity, and internet provided as part of a human right; where these utilities are not universally accessible, we call for them to be provided with immediate effect.
Immediate end to the unilateral, criminal sanctions regimes and economic blockades that impact countries such as Cuba, Iran, and Venezuela and prevent them from importing necessary medical supplies.
Urgent support for the peasantry to increase the production of healthy food and supply it to the government for direct distribution.
Suspend the dollar as an international currency and request that the United Nations urgently call a new international conference to propose a common international currency.
Ensure a universal minimum income in every country. This makes it possible to guarantee support from the state for millions of families who are out of work, working in extremely precarious conditions or self-employed. The current capitalist system excludes millions of people from formal jobs. The State should provide employment and a dignified life for the population. The cost of the Universal Basic Income can be covered by defence budgets, in particular the expense of arms and ammunition.”

https://mronline.org/2020/05/06/coronashock-a-virus-and-the-world/

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Колективист

as though debt free/universal income would come out of this. laughable.
state institutions are ruled by corporate/capital.
those of us who survive will be slaves, or scurry for safety.

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

You’ll never get it.(The contradictions).

Everything is, for some reason, funny to you. . .except of course, gravedigger.

“Now that’s ‘serious’ analyses.”

But whatever you do, sm,don’t kill yourself.

Сериозно.

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Колективист

it’s not funny to me at all. i am terrified of fascism.
i am very suicidal.
i already was for personal reasons, this is another escalation of my crisis.
but without that crisis i’d still be afraid of fascism.
nightmares of gestapo is what i am having.

JoeFarmer
ДжоФармър
Преди 1 година
Отговор на  сабяла

Каквото посееш това ще пожънеш.

Mike Stevens
Майк Стивънс
Преди 1 година
Отговор на  сабяла

Hey moosey… 👋
It’s ok, it will be ok. Don’t fear the worst, that won’t happen. Hope for the best. Look after yourself in every way.
????

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 1 година
Отговор на  сабяла

Виждам.

newestbeginning
Преди 1 година
Отговор на  Колективист

(maybe time to lay off…)

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

Are the Irish more anti-fascist than the English?

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

i’ve no idea.
i’m not sure many even know what it is/history.
the whole country rolled over.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

Pretty much the entire human race has been socially conditioned to passively submit to authority.
That’s probably why we even see plenty of leftists — even those who consider themselves genuine leftists able to divine the fake leftists — embracing authoritarianism. I’ve always thought that right-wingers (i.e. conservatives) were more likely to be authoritarian, i.e. less likely to “roll over”. Now I’m not so sure.

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

t’s weird. very upside down .

Sunny Cloud
Слънчев облак
Преди 9 месеца

Non was died because of the virus what doesn’t exist,but many will die because of the after effects of this psychological terror afterwards!……

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Слънчев облак

there’s colds and flues for sure. but no pandemic unless you call people all over the world getting colds and flues every year.
that bio weapon was a nice tough. it stopped even those inclined to think from thinking nd made them panic/believe in the fakedemic.
and thus fascism wins 🙁

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца

I’m wondering if or when the hype will be revealed in terms of (1) how many excess non-preventable deaths were caused by COVID-19 compared to excess preventable deaths caused by the lockdown, including malnourished children (2) the seasonal flu numbers contrasted with COVID-19 numbers.

Regarding #2, if Covid killing x number of people and seasonal flu is killing y number of people and other (both chronic and acute) respiratory infections are killing z number of people, then falsify that COVID-19 deaths (the x variable) are including other causes of death (the y & z variables). Just. Do. It.

I suspect that govt statisticians won’t in order to maximize the fear factor. The goal of the totalitarians is to hype up some new virus as “an extremely grave and dangerous new risk to public health” season after season. I suspect that if COVID-19 deaths were separated from deaths caused by the seasonal flu, deaths caused by pneumonia, deaths caused by other viral respiratory infections, deaths from chronic lower respiratory disease; then COVID-19 would be demonstrated to be an order of magnitude (at least) less lethal than it is being presented as. This isn’t “minimizing” the pandemic. It’s challenging those who minimize the damage caused by the lockdown.

Starfire
Starfire
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

“This isn’t ‘minimizing’ the pandemic. It’s challenging those who minimize the damage caused by the lockdown.” Exactly!

newestbeginning
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Starfire

Олеле

Starfire
Starfire
Преди 9 месеца

And check out this article: “It has now become a matter of faith that lockdown is vital. Not only is it believed to be causally responsible for ‘flattening the curve’, but it is feared that releasing it too soon may cause a second spike in cases and ‘economic disaster’ (presumably due to further huge numbers of deaths). On what evidence is this made? Even if one could understand why lockdown was imposed, it very rapidly became apparent that it had not been thought through. Not in terms of the wider effects on society (which have yet to be counted) and not even in terms of the ways that the virus itself might behave. But at the start, there was hardly any evidence. Everyone was guessing. Now we have a world of evidence, from around the globe, and the case for starting to reverse lockdown is compelling. Here are ten reasons why I believe that it is wrong to continue with lockdown and why we should start to
reverse it immediately and rapidly…” https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/ten-reasons-to-end-the-lockdown-now

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Starfire

Those are some good points the articles you linked to are making.
Some people — like your interlocutor — have been socially conditioned to believe that non-preventable social damages due to Covid-19 are worse than the preventable social damages due to the shelter-in-place quasi-quarantine Lockdown.
Good luck reasoning with those who have been socially conditioned.
They are capable of changing their minds.

Starfire
Starfire
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

Makes me think of the introduction that Maxwell suggested for an introduction to a video that was put on the Digger. “The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an
invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.
…We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society. …In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons…who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind.”― Edward Bernays, Propaganda

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Starfire

We’re bombarded by information. That quote is a keeper. I ought to refer to it often. Thanks.

sabateur
сабатьор
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Starfire

коментар изображение
omg, disqus!!!

sabateur
сабатьор
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

...

newestbeginning
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

And you imagine that YOU are not socially conditioned?

Starfire
Starfire
Преди 9 месеца

“The coronavirus is exceptionally infectious, but not very lethal. Indeed 60% of new cases in China were asymptomatic, rising to 69% in India as per the ICMR. On May 5, the global mortality from Covid-19 was at 255,486; India’s confirmed death toll was 1,568. The global death toll from influenza and pneumonia, pro-rated for India’s six-week lockdown (March 25–May 5), would be around 367,000. India’s pro-rated death toll from all causes would be 1 million, including influenza and pneumonia 75,000, TB 54,000, diarrhoea 50,000, road accidents 32,000, suicides 24,000. So statistically, the entire country has been preoccupied with only 1 coronavirus death out of 638 total deaths. No matter which way we look at it, this equation just doesn’t compute. In Europe, Asia and American states, there’s little connection between Covid-19 fatality rates and the timing and stringency of lockdown measures. Full lockdowns might not have saved lives as Covid-19 deaths had plateaued before lockdowns kicked in. Neighbouring countries with less restrictive measures experience similar timelines in the epidemic’s curve. In the UK ‘up to 150,000’ extra non-Covid-19 people, including 18,000 cancer patients, could die because the coronavirus fixation has caused neglect of other killer diseases. Increased suicides could kill 10 times as many Australians as the virus. The number of people suffering from acute hunger could almost double to 250 million from the worldwide impact on agricultural production and distribution. A study in South Africa shows the lockdown will kill 29 times more people than it saves.” https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/toi-edit-page/wrecking-entire-economies-lockdowns-may-be-causing-more-harm-than-good-worldwide-and-especially-in-india/

newestbeginning
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Starfire

You sure have a lot of (self serving, bias confirming) articles there.

I refuted the first article you asked me to look at, in detail – which analysis you totally ignored, and this contains similar “information”, so what is the point?

Wondering why you are working so feverishly to promote the interests of the ruling class.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца

I refuted the first article you asked me to look at, in detail – which analysis you totally ignored, and this contains similar “information”, so what is the point?

{smile with a face palm} You most certainly did NOT “refute” this article “We now know far more about Covid19 – the Lockdown should end” by Gavin Phillips posted on OffGuardian on 8 May 2020.
Talk about the self-serving bias utilized to confirm the cognitive bias of illusory (intellectual) superiority.
You began with a rant against traditional, classical libertarian opposition to (1) master-servant social relations (2) state power. Your “refutation” went downhill from there, e.g. mischaracterizing the libertarian as “me first and to hell with everyone else” and “Give me liberty or give me Covid”.
It’s unhinged to believe that leftist libertarians (1) don’t possess class consciousness / class awareness / the ability to analyze social relations according to socioeconomic class (2) are not friends of the working class struggle.

Ron Roy
Рон Рой
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Starfire

And one has to take into account the vast exaggerations concerning Covid-19 deaths. The 25,000 dead in Italy,as Professor Bassetti [infectious
disease specialist] said, died of heart attacks, cancer and other,”

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Starfire

”exceptionally infectious, but not very lethal”

there are many such.

or they became thus over tome, like measles.

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

if you get run over and die it will have been covid .
heart attacks,cancer and strokes have disappeared from the planet, thanks to the ”pandemic”.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

It’s the passive submission to the “Do what you’re told” and “Believe what we tell you” and “Prepare for more draconian social controls” mindset which I’m focused on now.

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

if/when unless … victors writing history 🙁

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

The skeptics who question the history (as spun by the victors) will prevail.

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

that’s optimistic!

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

As long as Menschen exist, there will be curious questioning inquirers.
Victors?
I still have a smidgen of confidence that egalitarian anarcho-communism will prevail.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism#Basis

Cab Driver xxx
Cab Driver xxx
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

“I still have a smidgen of confidence that egalitarian anarcho-communism will prevail – as long as my middle-class comforts (including 15 hours a day at the computer) aren’t compromised of course. And if that’s the case – it’s on to my next suit of clothes.”

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Cab Driver xxx

I don’t own a suit.
“Almost 4.57 billion people were active internet users as of April 2020, encompassing 59 percent of the global population. China, India and the United States rank ahead all other countries in terms of internet users.”
Maybe you’re illiberal and foolish enough to really believe that all 4.57 billion of us prioritize bourgeois comfort.
Get a life.

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

with less than 1% of us even questioning this?
but i would love such a plot twist. and soon, rather than decades hence.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

Isn’t the mass hysteria / the mass psychosis — which has transcended political ideas — the plot twist?
Hasn’t the main focus always been to fight delusions in their various forms?

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

the plot twist would be a large scale resistance heading of a fascist dystopi
a and then , even better , a rejection of corporate/capitalism.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

I like your plot twist better than mine.
Yours sounds like the climax to the narrative.
????

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 1 година
Отговор на  Mensch59

of course there’d be counter forces and such.

Maxwell
Максуел
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

#2 will never be known as the CDC has for the most part halted it’s tracking and tracing of the flu.

You can go here:

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/pastreports.htm

and look at the Years column and go i into the window for year 2019-2020. Start with Week 1 and examine up to most recent week listed, Week 17. Note the difference in how flu has been reported. They stopped almost entirely in Week 15. Also note the extensive amount of detail in flu reporting for twenty years- now next to nothing.

Защо е така?

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Максуел

You’ve probably been overwhelmed with reading lately, but this interview was excellent imo. https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/05/11/there-is-nothing-unprecedented-about-the-virus-itself/

newestbeginning
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Максуел

Reposting this as it has been held in posting pergatory…

(Added: The annual flu statistics are not out of line with previous years according to YOUR OWN LINK btw. LOL)

What a lot of hot air you waste with the constant ego driven slights and put downs. Wth is wrong with you? So much useless distraction – to cover up… what? Assuming (likely foolishly?) that your omission of a specific reference to the study was an honest one… In any case…

There are a lot of people under 60 who have perished from the virus.

Of course it is totally irrelevant if people had comorbidities or not, as you know, unless you totally devalue life. Someone with diabetes who could have lived 10 productive and happy years gets COVID and dies, but that death is to be dismissed (by you) because they had diabetes? What other lives do you dismiss as having no value and not deserving to be counted when they perish from preventable disease?

We had this discussion before when I pointed out your gross dismissal of deaths of the elderly and immune compromised. Recall you then denied that you devalued any life. At the time, I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but here ya go again with the same antisocial bull.

The ruling class ALWAYS exploits any and all situations for its own benefit. That is a given and obviously is not limited to exploiting human suffering of all kinds… The poor, sick, elderly, minorities, the imprisoned always suffer the most from any adversity.

If you are so concerned with the working class, why do you let employers off the hook and demand that poor desperate people be forced to work in unsafe conditions?

There are means of getting food to working class children that do not involve their parents being forced to work in unsafe conditions – or starve to death. Why are you silent on those?

What you seem (and I could be wrong) to advocate for, is forcing workers to return to work – without considering the risk to their health or that of their family or community – at sub-subsistence wages. IOW, you are pushing for a return to “business as usual” instead of social change that would benefit the most vulnerable.

You also seem to demand that individuals have the “liberty” to do as they please, engage in risky behavior if it suits them that is likely to cause harm to others in unknowable ways. This fails to acknowledge the reality that you cannot solve a SOCIAL problem through INDIVIDUAL action.

Will look at the link later, but wanted to get this out now.

Maxwell
Максуел
Преди 9 месеца

The flu positives are at 0.8% for Week 14- never have they been in that category, nothing close- never.

There are no people under 60 and healthy that have perished from covid. And you should be able to pull up studies that show thousands worldwide if we were in a “global pandemic.” But there aren’t. You failed again.

The rest of your garbage is manufactured opinion and slogans.

The lockdown is killing the working class- quit changing the subject.

That the capitalists want us to remain slaves is a tautology.

As always you comment evidence free. You operate at a very low level.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Максуел

The lockdown is killing the working class- quit changing the subject

These people are dense regarding this subject matter. They’d rather the working class get destroyed than some extremely small percentage of workers get sick and recover. The hysteria/psychosis over this coronavirus is hard to fathom.
https://thewallwillfall.org/2020/05/14/covid-19-back-to-school-the-new-normal-is-to-traumatise-children/
“Covid-19: Back to school, the new normal is to traumatise children?”

This is not a life that I would wish upon children – expert medical consensus is that children are not affected by Covid-19 so why the need for these traumatic measures. Yes, children carry the virus, this is normal and herd immunity is the only way to strengthen our own immune systems and to overcome the virus – or do we accept to live under house arrest for the rest of our lives and to subject our children to such unnatural and abusive lifestyles?

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

“These people are dense regarding this subject matter. They’d rather the working class get destroyed than some extremely small percentage of workers get sick and recover.”

Wow. What a cold, heartless unsympathetic, in the final analysis, inhumane view, Mensch.

Let’s see . . .currently over 84, 000 deaths, so far, attributed to Covid-19 (and over 5 times as many infected)

That’s the population of MANY U.S. cities.

Now, if an entire city of people died from the virus, would anyone, in their ‘right mind’*, be dismissing or minimizing this catastrophe, just because it had only occurred in one, arguably, midsized city?

Не мисля така.

*Perhaps, that’s the problem😎

Cab Driver xxx
Cab Driver xxx
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Максуел

“There are no people under 60 and healthy that have perished from covid.”

Once again, a sleazy lie from an even sleazier actor.

Here, you take a partial truth and expand on it to make an absolute lie.

“The head of the World Health Organization said that almost everyone who has died of the coronavirus in Europe has been over the age of 60.

Dr. Hans Kluge, the regional director for WHO Europe, said in a virtual press briefing that 95% of COVID-19 fatalities on the continent have been people older than 60. Additionally, more than 50% of all deaths in Europe were people aged 80 or older.

However, younger people are not immune. Ten to 15% of people under 50 with the coronavirus have developed moderate or severe infection.

“The very notion that COVID-19 only affects older people is factually wrong,” Kluge stressed. “Severe cases of the disease have been seen in people in their teens or 20s with many requiring intensive care and some unfortunately passing away.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2020-04-02/who-nearly-all-coronavirus-deaths-in-europe-are-people-aged-60-and-older%3Fcontext%3Damp

So pathetic. Not only is your …no people under 60… assertion a total fabrication on its face, even if it wasn’t, the ramifications of infections and carriers are discarded by you like so much rubbish. You’ve lost your freaking mind, man.

Maxwell
Максуел
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Cab Driver xxx

Bwahaha- you can’t even interpret your own “data point” or read what was stated you in plain English. I said under 50 AND healthy- doh, you forgot that part.

AND I said even if you could cite ONE- which I still haven’t seen- you should be able to cite THOUSANDS if we were ACTUALLY in a global pandemic- which we’ll never see as it doesn’t exist.

But it gets worse- you scarcely even talk about deaths- you avoid it- you talk about INFECTIONS as if that has any meaning at all. And it is even cited that these infections are moderate or severe. What the hell does that even mean? Anything at any given time is what it means. You’re citing lifelong capitalist bureaucrats and US News World Report and Pharam owned WHO as your sources? Speaks volumes as to where your allegiances actually lie.

You really are just plain dumb.

Cab Driver xxx
Cab Driver xxx
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Максуел

I forgot NOTHING, asshole! What you forgot – and conveniently failed to acknowledge in the first place, was my admonition that “we all got co-morbidities,” fkhead. Comorbidities big and small that Covid apparently hones in on.

As for not talking about deaths, is that any worse than not taking about infections??? Let me help you: YES. Much worse. The truth is you don’t have a fking clue what you’re talking about.

And then the expected zinger from you: your much anticipated slur about “capitalist” sources. Sources you’ll use when you think it makes your case, and sources you’ll then deride when they’re used against you. And the truth is your sources – never mind your comrades – are as dank and dark as they come. Now go fk yerself. You got some nerve talking to me about allegiances.

You’re an embarrassment.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Cab Driver xxx

Someone got reactive.

Cab Driver xxx
Cab Driver xxx
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Максуел

Now tell me: will you and F&F be heading up to Lansing to join your MAGA chums??? Best leave your Marx at home, scvmbag. No, better yet, with your natural gift for persuasion you can maybe do some recruiting. Lol. My god, yer a freaking joke.

Cab Driver xxx
Cab Driver xxx
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Максуел

Downvotes are all you got?
Figures. You’ve never been much for pushback. You m.o. is to leave that to your toadies. Back in the day, I was a Navy “Smoker.” A good body punch tends to take a guy’s air. After that his legs ain’t far behind. Fkin’ bum you are man.

Maxwell
Максуел
Преди 1 година
Отговор на  Cab Driver xxx

First 20 minutes from an NHS worker- start using your brain :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=HR8AMfSuKFY&feature=emb_logo

Cab Driver xxx
Cab Driver xxx
Преди 1 година
Отговор на  Максуел

I’m 58 yrs old, man. You’ve depleted damn near the entirety of my good will towards you and you’re on the thinnest of ice. NO ONE tells me “You really are just plain dumb” and “start using your brain” – and then tells me to look at a video. Got that, fker? You’ve answered to nothing and continue to blabber past my inquiries with utter nonsense. If you care to start over, lemme know. I’ll give it a shot. If not you can sod off with this, Max.

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Максуел

“But it gets worse- you scarcely even talk about deaths- you avoid it: . .”

And, with no grasp of the dialectics of the current situation – despite all of your self-righteous ‘opposition’ to the rule of capital – you’ll continue (along with your new gravedigger cohorts) to GET IT WRONG.

“. . .Just as businesses can be reopened for wage earner workers, schools can be opened for their children. The wealthy will make other arrangements for their children, just as they have made arrangements other than the necessity of working for a paycheck to pay bills.

We seem to have resolved what seemed to be a Catch-22 situation. If the pandemic comes in again like the tide and the death count makes the headlines (Gov. Ron De Santis of Florida is citing privacy rights as reason to block Covid-19 statistics), we may be ourselves full of protective, psychological antigens to these deaths, or anxious to move onto something new and therefore bored and angry with the media’s reminders of the pandemic’s casualties. Our attentions want to stream elsewhere, and our fingers yearn to find new apps. When celebrities die, we review their lives; when wage earners die, owners re-hire.

The real Catch-22 is not Trump’s, but the wage earner’s. They need wages to pay this month’s bills but the jobs they return to endanger their lives. It wasn’t Trump who caught the virus, but his valet, whom he knew but didn’t know. There’s an entire message in those words. The wage earner who dies isn’t known or able to make himself or herself known. Ironically, if we lose all such service people, Trump will have to welcome replacements from south of the border.

Those who live on dividends and interest from investments face no Catch-22. Private planes take them where they think they will be safer. Sheltering in place on your yacht with a serving crew is a safe sort of isolation. It’s in fact not much different that life before the pandemic. A cell phone and zoom keep you actively tending your horde. A top 20% meritocratic class has already been working from home, not bound by office or punching a wage clock. Life’s not much different for them. Nannies and tutors, daily tested, can handle, as usual, the offspring. Someone — not you — will cook and clean. Life’s not much different. No Catch-22 here.

I would be very surprised to see the media showing us these anointed lives and hear their stories of how they’re getting along, how life is so different from pre-pandemic days. Instead, what we get are tearful accounts of the unemployed, the crushed, and all those who lived paycheck to paycheck and so, without a paycheck, don’t know how to live. . .”

newestbeginning
Преди 1 година
Отговор на  Колективист

Well said… Exactly what I have been thinking but unable to really get out.

Robert
Робърт
Преди 1 година
Отговор на  Колективист

Great piece of writing and analysis!
Esp:
I”t wasn’t Trump who caught the virus, but his valet, whom he knew but didn’t know. There’s an entire message in those words. “

Robert
Робърт
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Колективист

Thanks! Signed up!

EthanAllen1
Итън Алън 1
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Робърт

Същото важи!

EthanAllen1
Итън Алън 1
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Максуел

отново: Максуел on May 14 @ 6:16 AM said:

There are no people under 60 and healthy that have perished from covid.

on Mat 14 @ 9:23 AM he said:

Bwahaha- you can’t even interpret your own “data point” or read what was stated you in plain English. I said under 50 AND healthy- doh, you forgot that part.

Neither statement has any factual origin or authentification. Why is that?
As Usual,
EA

Cab Driver xxx
Cab Driver xxx
Преди 1 година
Отговор на  Итън Алън 1

Guess a guy tossing around that many up-votes on my pile of otherwise useless disqus currency deserves a thx and a how do-you-do? Cheers.

Robert
Робърт
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Итън Алън 1

Maybe a disinformationwebsite?

And there’s:

The Same People Who Peddle Climate Denial Are Behind Coronavirus Pseudoscience

https://earther.gizmodo.com/the-same-people-who-peddle-climate-denial-are-behind-co-1843024601

Andrew Lazarus
Андрей Лазар
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Максуел

More old people than young die every day, regardless of COVID. The idea that COVID is OK because it’s cleaning out deadwood elderly (thanks, dude) isn’t true: it doesn’t seem to be that much more deadly to the old (at least on NY City data) than just being alive.

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Максуел

“There are no people under 60 and healthy that have perished from covid. “”
No people?You’re delusional, or drunk on your own sophistic arguments.

Is The (grave) Digger your next-to-the-last refuge . . .before you become the token ‘leftist’ on Breitbart?

When the ship really hits the ruling class clan, and their defenders, you’ll go down hard with the sht.

В същото време:

https://youtu.be/B8z0jFxOmFo

abbeysbooks
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Колективист

Maybe not none as there are ill people under the age of 60 that are at risk. But the levels of significance in stats are almost zero.

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  абатски книги

“But the levels of significance in stats are almost zero.”

Wtf is that supposed to mean?

abbeysbooks
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Колективист

It means that at the .01 level the experimental result can only happen by chance at the .01 level. that is waaaay at the end of the tail of the normal distribution so it is not at all likely and you can safely say that your results occurred because of the experimental procedure you used. And only by a waaaay out chance could they happen by chance and not by your methods. It is NOT proof. Only a probability. The only proofs are mathematical. Now if it is not a normal curve, a normal distribution and instead a distribution of FAT TAILS you are in a different universe if you cannot specify that and use different statistics in your work. But you will have to know that as the DIY software is not that smart and neither are the researchers using that pre fab stuff.

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  абатски книги

“But you will have to know that as the DIY software is not that smart and neither are the researchers using that pre fab stuff.”

But you are. . .that smart, eh?

Credentials?

newestbeginning
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Колективист

pssst – that one ^^ says she is eagerly voting for Trump… what more needs to be said?

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца

That ‘one’ also seems to be part of the Trump ‘death cult.’

Between THAT, idiotic conspiracy theories, denial, sociopathology and misanthropy . . . we’ve got some very difficult days ahead.

Robert
Робърт
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Максуел

Or, instead of some conspiracy theory, there’s rational discussion:

Note: The COVID-19 pandemic is affecting healthcare seeking behavior. The number of persons and their reasons for seeking care in the outpatient and ED settings is changing. These changes impact data from ILINet in ways that are difficult to differentiate from changes in illness levels, therefore ILINet data should be interpreted with caution. CDC is tracking the COVID-19 pandemic in a weekly publication called COVIDView.

Key Updates for Week 18, ending May 2, 2020
Laboratory confirmed flu activity as reported by clinical laboratories remains low. Influenza-like illness activity continues to decrease and is below the national baseline. The percent of deaths due to pneumonia or influenza (P&I) is decreasing but remains elevated, primarily due to COVID-19, not influenza. Reported pediatric flu deaths for the season are high at 174

Your link. Top of page.

CB
CB
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Робърт

CDC is обикновено a decent source, though one has to be careful about the ways in which the MAGA cult has corrupted it.

Конспирации do exist… and maybe they’re not quite so far from Gary and Maxwell as they’d like…

There are all sorts of empires out there!

…some are more ethical than others…

„Прокремълските медии разпространяват дезинформация за коронавируса с цел„ влошаване “на кризата в общественото здраве на запад“

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/18/russian-media-spreading-covid-19-disinformation

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Максуел

Also note the extensive amount of detail in flu reporting for twenty years- now next to nothing.

Защо е така?

It seems rather obvious. For political purposes and fear-mongering purposes — fear is a quite effective tool for propagandists — the seasonal flu is gone in favor of Covid-19. No vast secret or obscure conspiracy needed.коментар изображение
(Sorry for the meme. It’s too serious to be taken lightly.)

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

it’s very serious indeed. global corporate fascism/surveillance police state/enslavement/eugenics is what we’re facing.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

Lots of people would rather deny what you’re seeing we’re facing.
Just like there is so much denial about capitalogenic / anthropogenic pollution wrecking ecosystems.
Just like there is so much denial about the Great Acceleration causing a climate change event generating a mass extinction level event.
It looks like you and I are quite similar with respect to the following:
“George Orwell once talked about his ability to face unpleasant facts, and that’s always inspired me. I want to look at the things that are happening in the world that we may not want to think about and try to really understand them” (Roy Scranton).

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

most !
well, them in power now know how high we’ll jump, how low we’ll crawl, and how few will resist.
camps won’t even be needed unless there’s a plot twist.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

camps won’t even be needed…

Slaves comfortable with their chains and idiotic commenters posing as “leftists” cheering on that comfort.

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

i doubt it will be that comfy with austerity/poverty, and people who’ve caught on to late scurrying away from being chipped,maybe.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

Pretty sure that being chipped will cause a revolt.
There’s a faction of society which will refuse “the mark of the beast”.

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

might be to late, or mean violent revolt.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

Peaceful revolts/rebellions are pie-in-the-sky.
: - /

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

maybe. i still prefer not to have violence.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

Нито пък аз.
I wish there was a peaceful way to overthrow this filthy and decomposing and stinky and sick-unto-death system.

dreamjoehill
dreamjoehil
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

Your slaves y is elitist crap. So is your Covidiot meme. The vast majority of workers support stay-at-home but you think you know better. You think you are wiser, that you see the trut, unlike the “hysterical” masses.

You’re an arrogant bourgeois pig. No surprise that you call yourself a libertarian.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  dreamjoehil

Glad to have provoked and agitated you, you nazi cur.

dreamjoehill
dreamjoehil
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

That’s all you have? You are worse than useless, piggy.

Your perspective devalues workers lives, for which you shamelessly exhibit an scrooge-like disregard. Not much indolence allowed in the poor house, right Scroogie?

You are truly monstrous

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  dreamjoehil

I welcome these insults from the very worst bigots on social media.
You fake leftists act like leftism is some sort of cover for illiberal identitarianism and the kind of bigotry which would make a redneck blush.
POS anti-left-libertarian.
Go back to your fellows with corona-phobia, azzhole.

dreamjoehill
dreamjoehil
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

Insulting libetarians is not bigotry. It’s truth telling.

You align yourself with one of the most destructive ideologies on the planet today and try to paper over that alliance by claiming your a “left libertarian”

You’re a bourgeois elitists, through and through. Calling yourself a left libertarian can’t hide that fact.

You also appear to be a closet T-rumpsucker. You’re just all around filthy.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  dreamjoehil

You also appear to be a closet T-rumpsucker. You’re just all around filthy.

Yeah. I didn’t figure it would take long for the self-loathing homophobia to emerge. Right on cue. Way to go!!

dreamjoehill
dreamjoehil
Преди 1 година
Отговор на  Mensch59

Homophobe? Really?

Nah, you can suck my dick anytime. I’ll even give you a nickel so you can call yourself a hustler.

newestbeginning
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

The statistics are available if you look for them. There is no conspiracy.

Pence is advocating people who have been exposed go about their business and getting up and personal without masks so you are in good company with this conspiracy sht you are dealing.

This will be my last post to you on this subject.

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца

yes, they are. all the info is out there.
NO excuse for engaging in panic/supporting totalitarianism. NONE.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца

Refer to @disqus_Ldnj57i6PQ:disqus’s post to me on this thread and his question to you.
As I pointed out to Collectivist, it’s frustrating and disheartening when claims such as “The statistics are available…” are not supported. It’s a nothing-burger, like “Look it up for yourself” instead of the claimant shouldering the onus. The quality of dissent is important.

newestbeginning
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

Who imagined you would become a shill for Maxwell. Life is stranger than fiction, eh? Hey no worries. Whatever it takes to keep the home fires burning.

The statistics “are” available but not supported if you don’t look.

The agenda you are pushing is antisocial and anti human. You are willing to put my daughter and myself at risk to maintain your comfort. You are known by the company you keep brother.

Мир.

Maxwell
Максуел
Преди 9 месеца

No one’s being a shill- they are asking you to back up your argument with facts- you haven’t even attempted to do so. What’s wrong with you?

How about we start at the beginning- the Imperial College’s study that was the justification and bulwark for the lock downs. Let’s start there. Then we can move into other main topics. If you can’t or won’t do that it proves you are dishonest or intellectually lazy.

newestbeginning
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Максуел

Reluctant to go down a rabbit hole with you but will ask for a link to the Imperial College study you refer to.

Maxwell
Максуел
Преди 9 месеца

F*kin’ disgusting all of it- that you don’t even attempt to understand what’s going on before flinging accusations shows the level at which you’re operating.

Study #4

Second Analysis of Ferguson’s Model
by Sue Denim (not the author’s real name)

I’d like to provide a followup to my first analysis. Firstly because new information has come to light, and secondly to address a few points of disagreement I noticed in a minority of responses.

The hidden history. Someone realised they could unexpectedly recover parts of the deleted history from GitHub, meaning we now have an audit log of changes dating back to April 1st. This is still not exactly the original code Ferguson ran, but it’s significantly closer.

Sadly it shows that Imperial have been making some false statements.

ICL staff claimed the released and original code are “essentially the same functionally”, which is why they “do not think it would be particularly helpful to release a second codebase which is functionally the same”.

In fact the second change in the restored history is a fix for a critical error in the random number generator. Other changes fix data corruption bugs (another one), algorithmic errors, fixing the fact that someone on the team can’t spell household, and whilst this was taking place other Imperial academics continued to add new features related to contact tracing apps.

The released code at the end of this process was not merely reorganised but contained fixes for severe bugs that would corrupt the internal state of the calculations. That is very different from “essentially the same functionally”.

The stated justification for deleting the history was to make “the repository rather easier to download” because “the history squash (erase) merged a number of changes we were making with large data files”. “We do not think there is much benefit in trawling through our internal commit histories”.

The entire repository is less than 100 megabytes. Given they recommend a computer with 20 gigabytes of memory to run the simulation for the UK, the cost of downloading the data files is immaterial. Fetching the additional history only took a few seconds on my home WiFi.

Even if the files had been large, the tools make it easy to not download history if you don’t want it, to solve this exact problem.

I don’t quite know what to make of this. Originally I thought these claims were a result of the academics not understanding the tools they’re working with, but the Microsoft employees helping them are actually employees of a recently acquired company: GitHub. GitHub is the service they’re using to distribute the source code and files. To defend this I’d have to argue that GitHub employees don’t understand how to use GitHub, which is implausible.

I don’t think anyone involved here has any ill intent, but it seems via a chain of innocent yet compounding errors – likely trying to avoid exactly the kind of peer review they’re now getting – they have ended up making false claims in public about their work.

Effect of the bug fixes. I was curious what effect the hidden bug fixes had on the model output, especially after seeing the change to the pseudo-random number generator constants (which means the prior RNG didn’t work). I ran the latest code in single threaded mode for the baseline scenario a couple of times, to establish that it was producing the same results (on my machine only), which it did. Then I ran the version from the initial import against the latest data, to control for data changes.

The resulting output tables were radically different to the extent that they appear incomparable, e.g. the older code outputs data for negative days and a different set of columns. Comparing by row count for day 128 (7th May) gave 57,145,154 infected-but-recovered people for the initial code but only 42,436,996 for the latest code, a difference of about 34%.

I wondered if the format of the data files had changed without the program being able to detect that, so then I reran the initial import code with the initial data. This yielded 49,445,121 recoveries – yet another completely different number.

It’s clear that the changes made over the past month and a half have radically altered the predictions of the model. It will probably never be possible to replicate the numbers in Report 9.

Political attention. I was glad to see the analysis was read by members of Parliament. In particular, via David Davis MP the work was seen by Steve Baker – one of the few British MPs who has been a working software engineer. Baker’s assessment was similar to that of most programmers: “David Davis is right. As a software engineer, I am appalled. Read this now”. Hopefully at some point the right questions will be asked in Parliament. They should focus on reforming how code is used in academia in general, as the issue is structural incentives rather than a single team. The next paragraph will demonstrate that.

....

https://lockdownsceptics.org/second-analysis-of-fergusons-model/

newestbeginning
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Максуел

You know what is disgusting? When, in good faith, someone asks for a link to a study that you vaguely mention, and instead of linking the study, you go on to disparage the question and questioner. This tactic is a huge distraction from any discussion – for me, anyway.

You posted a whole lot of critique of the study, but interestingly, you didn’t link the study itself or even post its title so we could make sure we are starting on the same page.

Защо е така?

Maxwell
Максуел
Преди 9 месеца

The study itself is linked all over the place- as I said you are dishonest. Can’t you quit with the distractions for a minute. How many under 60 with no comorbidities have died from this “black plague.” Answer: 0.

How much more in your face obvious could this money grab be- and it’s a direct assault on the working class but you’re for the working class- and it’s impact is directly hampering working class children to get food- but you’re for the working class. Gimme a break.

You didn’t take the 30 seconds necessary to google the titles name and go to the link yourself? Why is that?

https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk:8443/handle/10044/1/77482

Cab Driver xxx
Cab Driver xxx
Преди 1 година
Отговор на  Максуел

“How many under 60 with no comorbidities have died from this “black plague.” Answer: 0.”

Patently false. Not only is this false on its face, but by the deception that comes with it. We all have “comorbidities.” Sort of like two or three lies in one. Well done, Max. If a patient’s copd or diabetes or heart ailment etc. is exacerbated by some element of x – and the patient then dies, did he/she die of x or the comorbidity?

You’re a liar. And a raging scumbag.

And something else, fkhead: no wonder you closed your posting history. With the company you now keep it’s best to keep that locked up.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 1 година
Отговор на  Cab Driver xxx

It’s effectively zero, not numerically zero.
Even with the inflated number of covid-19 deaths, the mortality rate of this disease is approx 0.004%. (Note Well the lack of quantitative analysis regarding different variables in reporting deaths. Where are the number of deaths caused by chronic upper respiratory disease contrasted with covid? Where are the number of deaths caused by pre SARS-2 acute viral respiratory infections contrasted with covid? Where are the number of deaths caused by seasonal flu contrasted with covid? Where are the number of deaths caused by pneumonia contrasted with covid?)

Your effective survival rate for being exposed to SARS-nCoV-2 is 99.996%. Rounded to the closest whole number is 100%. What a wonderful topic to sh¡t on your brother over!

sabateur
сабатьор
Преди 1 година
Отговор на  Cab Driver xxx

how would anyone know given that any death is now ”corona”.

except maybe lock down infused suicides/homicides [ domestic abuse is up ] . those could be sort of classified as corona deaths.

meanwhile heart attacks and stokes have disappeared and nobody dies of cancer anymore. it’s all my corona.

Bored Now
Bored Now
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабатьор

Hey Sable,

Still angry about outing yourself I see.

nobody dies of cancer anymore.it’s all my corona.

…and yet the newspapers still report non-COVID deaths somehow slipping under the radar of your lizard-people conspiracy. Lulz.

sabateur
сабатьор
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Bored Now

you make NO sense!

Bored Now
Bored Now
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабатьор

you make NO sense!

It’s pretty clear Sable. A while ago I addressed you as “Sable” and you answered “Yes” and you still want to pretend that’s not who you are. Sounds like someone who’s really bent out of shape about the whole thing. 🙂

But more to the topic, you are somehow claiming that all deaths are getting reported as COVID deaths. Yet, I see people in the paper get reported as non-COVID deaths.

newestbeginning
Преди 1 година
Отговор на  Максуел

What a lot of hot air you waste with the constant ego driven slights and put downs. Wth is wrong with you? So much useless distraction – to cover up… what? Assuming (likely foolishly?) that your omission of a specific reference to the study was an honest one… In any case…

There are a lot of people under 60 who have perished from the virus.

Of course it is totally irrelevant if people had comorbidities or not, as you know, unless you totally devalue life. Someone with diabetes who could have lived 10 productive and happy years gets COVID and dies, but that death is to be dismissed (by you) because they had diabetes? What other lives do you dismiss as having no value and not deserving to be counted when they perish from preventable disease?

We had this discussion before when I pointed out your gross dismissal of deaths of the elderly and immune compromised. Recall you then denied that you devalued any life. At the time, I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but here ya go again with the same antisocial bull.

The ruling class ALWAYS exploits any and all situations for its own benefit. That is a given and obviously is not limited to exploiting human suffering of all kinds… The poor, sick, elderly, minorities, the imprisoned always suffer the most from any adversity.

If you are so concerned with the working class, why do you let employers off the hook and demand that poor desperate people be forced to work in unsafe conditions?

There are means of getting food to working class children that do not involve their parents being forced to work in unsafe conditions – or starve to death. Why are you silent on those?

What you seem (and I could be wrong) to advocate for, is forcing workers to return to work – without considering the risk to their health or that of their family or community – at sub-subsistence wages. IOW, you are pushing for a return to “business as usual” instead of social change that would benefit the most vulnerable.

You also seem to demand that individuals have the “liberty” to do as they please, engage in risky behavior if it suits them that is likely to cause harm to others in unknowable ways. This fails to acknowledge the reality that you cannot solve a SOCIAL problem through INDIVIDUAL action.

Will look at the link later, but wanted to get this out now.

Maxwell
Максуел
Преди 9 месеца

Доклад №3:

Code Violation: Other Than That, How Was the Play, Mrs. Lincoln?

By far the most important model in the world has been the Imperial College epidemiological model. Largely on the basis of the predictions of this model, nations have been locked down. The UK had been planning to follow a strategy very similar to Sweden’s until the Imperial model stampeded the media, and then the government, into a panic. Imperial predictions regarding the US also contributed to the panicdemic in the US.

These predictions have proved to be farcically wrong, with deaths tolls exaggerated by one and perhaps two orders of magnitude.

Models only become science when tested against data/experiment. By that standard, the Imperial College model failed spectacularly.
... ..

I was suspicious of this model from the first. Not only because of its doomsday predictions and the failures of previous models produced by Imperial and the leader of its team, Neil Ferguson. But because of my general skepticism about big models (as @soncharm used to say, “all large calculations are wrong”), and most importantly, because Imperial failed to disclose its code. That is a HUGE red flag. Why were they hiding?

And how right that was. A version of the code has been released, and it is a hot mess. It has more bugs than east Africa does right now.

This is one code review. Biggest take away: due to bugs in the code, the model results are not reproducible. The code itself introduces random variation in the model. That means that runs with the same inputs generate different outputs.

Are you f*cking kidding me?

Reproducibility is the essence of science. A model whose predictions can not be reproduced, let alone empirical results based on that model, is so much crap. It is the antithesis of science.

After tweeting about the code review article linked above, I received feedback from other individuals with domain expertise who had reviewed the code. They concur, and if anything, the article understates the problems.

Here’s one article by an interlocutor:

The Covid-19 function variations aren’t stochastic. They’re a bug caused by poor management of threads in the code. This causes a random variation, so multiple runs give different results. The response from the team at Imperial is that they run it multiple times and take an average. But this is wrong. Because the results should be identical each time. Including the buggy results as well as the correct ones means that the results are an average of the correct and the buggy ones. And so wouldn’t match the expected results if you did the same calculation by hand.

...... ..

I repeat: “the code is worthless.”

Another correspondent confirmed the evaluations of the bugginess of the code, and added an important detail about the underlying model itself:

I spent 3 days reviewing his code last week. It’s an ugly mess of thousands of lines of C (not C++). There are hundreds of input parameters (not counting the fact it models population density to 1km x 1km cells) and 4 different infection mechanisms. It made me feel quite ill.

Hundreds of input parameters–another huge red flag. I replied:

How do you estimate 100s of parameters? Sounds like a climate model . . . .

The response:

Yes. It shares the exact same philosophy as a GCM – model everything, but badly.

...... ..

This relates to another comment:

No discussion of comparative statics.

So again, you have no idea what is driving the results, and how changes in the inputs or parameters will change predictions. So how do you use such a model to devise policies, which is inherently an exercise in comparative statics? So as not to leave you in suspense: YOU CAN’T.

This is particularly damning:

And also the time resolution. The infection model time steps are 6 hours. I think these models are designed more for CYA. It’s bottom-up micro-modelling which is easier to explain and justify to politicos than a more physically realistic macro level model with fewer parameters.

To summarize: these models are absolute crap. Bad code. Bad methodology. Farcical results.

Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?

But it gets better!

The code that was reviewed in the first-linked article . . . had been cleaned up! It’s not the actual code used to make the original predictions. Instead, people from Microsoft spent a month trying to fix it–and it was still as buggy as Kenya. (I note in passing that Bill Gates is a major encourager of panic and lockdown, so the participation of a Microsoft team here is quite telling.)

The code was originally in C, and then upgraded to C++. Well, it could be worse. It could have been Cobol or Fortran–though one of those reviewing the code suggested: “Much of the code consists of formulas for which no purpose is given. John Carmack (a legendary video-game programmer) surmised that some of the code might have been automatically translated from FORTRAN some years ago.”

All in all, this appears to be the epitome of bad modeling and coding practice. Code that grew like weeds over years. Code lacking adequate documentation and version control. Code based on overcomplicated and essentially untestable models.
.........

And on such completely defective foundations policy castles have been built. Policies that have turned the world upside down.

...... ..

If this doesn’t make you angry, you are incapable of anger. Or you are an idiot. There is no third choice.

https://streetwiseprofessor.com/code-violation-other-than-that-how-was-the-play-mrs-lincoln/

There are numerous comments after this one from coders- universally condemning the hack job that was the massive fraud of a study that kicked off this con job.

You won’t take the time to read or study any of it will you?

Maxwell
Максуел
Преди 9 месеца

Доклад №2:

OF BITS, BUGS AND RESPONSIBILITY IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE

...

At the end of the link was the codebase promised for weeks by Neil Ferguson, the computational epidemiologist who has advised the UK government on COVID-19 related steps until his recent resignation. I have previously been a staunch defender of Ferguson’s approach – his model was (and is) theoretically sound, and probably as good as such models will ever get. Prediction, of course, is difficult. Especially when it comes to the future, as Niels Bohr is credited of saying. Using a method that relies on simulating populations in cells and microcells, it combines the granularity and stochastics of agent-based models without requiring the resources typical for agent-based simulation. His model, versions of which were used in previous outbreaks, has been the de facto gold standard to the UK government.

And looking at the code, that raises some extremely serious questions. I would like to explore some of these issues, but will not go into a detailed analysis of the code, for one reason – the code eventually (and reluctantly) shared by Imperial College is almost definitely not the code used to generate forecasts for HM Government. We know that at some point, Github and even John Carmack (yes, that John Carmack!) has been involved in cleaning up some of the quality issues. Imperial, meanwhile, obstinately resists releasing original code – both via Github and under a valid FOIA request that Imperial’s lawyers are entirely misinterpreting.1) We can, however, safely assume from the calibre of the people who have worked on the improved version that whatever was there was worse.

The quality issue

First of all, the elephant in the room: code quality. It is very difficult to look at the Ferguson code with any understanding of software engineering and conclude that this is good, or even tolerable. Neil Ferguson himself attempts a very thin apologia for this:

neil_ferguson

@neil_ferguson
I’m conscious that lots of people would like to see and run the pandemic simulation code we are using to model control measures against COVID-19. To explain the background – I wrote the code (thousands of lines of undocumented C) 13+ years ago to model flu pandemics…

That, sir, is not a feature. It’s not even a bug. It’s somewhere between negligence and unintentional but grave scientific misconduct.

For those who are not in the computational fields: “my code is too complicated for you to get it” is not an acceptable excuse. It is the duty of everyone who releases code to document it – within the codebase or outside (or a combination of the two). Greater minds than Neil Ferguson (with all due respect) have a tough enough time navigating a large code base, and especially where you have collaborators, it is not unusual to need a second or two to remember what a particular function is doing or what the arguments should be like. Or, to put it more bluntly: for thirteen years, taxpayer funding from the MRC went to Ferguson and his team, and all it produced was code that violated one of the most fundamental precepts of good software development – intelligibility.

... ..

Yet for some reason, the UK government treated Ferguson’s model as almost dogmatic truth. This highlights an important issue: politicians have not been taught enough about data-driven decision-making, especially not where predictive data is involved. There is wide support for a science-driven response to COVID-19, but very little scrutiny of the science behind many of the predictions that informed early public health measures. Hopefully, a Royal Commission with subpoena powers will have the opportunity to review in detail whether Ferguson intentionally hid the model from HM Government the way he hid it from the rest of the world or whether the government’s experts just did not understand how to scrutinise or assess a model – or, the worst case scenario: they saw the model and still let it inform what might have been the greatest single decision HM Government has made since 1939, without looking for alternatives (there are many other modelling approaches, and many developers who have written better code).

....

https://chrisvoncsefalvay.com/2020/05/09/imperial-covid-model/

Maxwell
Максуел
Преди 9 месеца

I’m guessing you won’t read these comprehensively. I’m also guessing you’ll avoid discussing the actual content of these reports- you’ll slip into various logical fallacies. That’s right- I have no faith in you or the others upstream to even have the integrity to take a step back and admit you know absolutely nothing about any of this. That you would even have to ask and have not taken the ten minutes to investigate this on your own is instructive.

But please tell me how is it then that you could hold to your positions from a position of ignorance on the topic you have such strong opinions on.

Nevertheless I’ll post three studies on this topic. That study was so incompetent that it wouldn’t pass review in a freshman coding class.

Report #1 that proves the sham of the Imperial College’s report that served as the foundation for the Covid hysteria and bag of lies that is the Covid Panic Event of 2020.

Code Review of Ferguson’s Model

The code.

It isn’t the code Ferguson ran to produce his famous Report 9. What’s been released on GitHub is a heavily modified derivative of it, after having been upgraded for over a month by a team from Microsoft and others. This revised codebase is split into multiple files for legibility and written in C++, whereas the original program was “a single 15,000 line file that had been worked on for a decade” (this is considered extremely poor practice). A request for the original code was made 8 days ago but ignored, and it will probably take some kind of legal compulsion to make them release it. Clearly, Imperial are too embarrassed by the state of it ever to release it of their own free will, which is unacceptable given that it was paid for by the taxpayer and belongs to them.

......

But Edinburgh came back and reported that – even in single-threaded mode – they still see the problem. So Imperial’s understanding of the issue is wrong. Finally, Imperial admit there’s a bug by referencing a code change they’ve made that fixes it. The explanation given is “It looks like historically the second pair of seeds had been used at this point, to make the runs identical regardless of how the network was made, but that this had been changed when seed-resetting was implemented”. In other words, in the process of changing the model they made it non-replicable and never noticed.

......

Although the academic on those threads isn’t Neil Ferguson, he is well aware that the code is filled with bugs that create random results. In change #107 he authored he comments: “It includes fixes to InitModel to ensure deterministic runs with holidays enabled”. In change #158 he describes the change only as “A lot of small changes, some critical to determinacy”.

.......

Imperial are trying to have their cake and eat it. Reports of random results are dismissed with responses like “that’s not a problem, just run it a lot of times and take the average”, but at the same time, they’re fixing such bugs when they find them. They know their code can’t withstand scrutiny, so they hid it until professionals had a chance to fix it, but the damage from over a decade of amateur hobby programming is so extensive that even Microsoft were unable to make it run right.

https://lockdownsceptics.org/code-review-of-fergusons-model/

And don’t give me any crap about the LS site as it is only referencing the work of a coder AND two more studies coming right up.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца

The statistics “are” available…

That’s the second time you’ve posted that nothing-burger. Your answer “the statistics you and your brethren claim to seek of course” is a non-answer, a double helping of nothing-burger. IFF you had the statistics to back up some huge number of deaths caused by Covid в изобилие to the number of deaths caused by seasonal flu, pneumonia, other acute viral respiratory infections, chronic upper respiratory disease THEN you’d be able to quote these statistics and link to them. Since either you cannot or will not, you’re being dishonest (and worse).

The agenda you are pushing is antisocial and anti human.

The continue-the-Lockdown-until-economies-completely-collapse-and-totalitarian-social-controls-are-implemented agenda is the one which is antisocial and inhumane and inhuman.

Who imagined you would become a shill for Maxwell

Argument via rhetorical hyperbole is your forte. A “shill” is an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others. Provide actual evidence — you know, how dialectical arguers are supposed to behave — that @disqus_Ldnj57i6PQ:disqus is “a hawker, gambler, or swindler”.
But yeah, I do agree with Maxwell on this thread, esp:

The working class is getting destroyed by this. Children of the working class in the US are suffering through the highest levels of food insecurity on record.

WTF is wrong with you that you don’t see this? That’s not sad it is disgusting. Either you are outraged by all of these lies or you are an idiot. There is no third option.

You, newest, are essentially arguing that the working class is disposable as we irrationally & fearfully focus on a virus. You cannot even provide statistical data as to how lethal this virus is. Do you need to be hit over the head to remind yourself how lethal economic collapse is?

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

Actually, you probably need to be reminded that you have more to ‘fear’, and to learn about Mother Nature’s POWERS, MOVEMENTS and, most importantly, inextricable RELATIONSHIP to ALL economic and other human, activity, than even capitalist economic collapse.

It’ll be more easy, even in the (undeniable)short and longterm difficulty, to survive economic rather than biospheric collapse.

If I HAD to( and we do) choose . . .

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Колективист

Yeah. There’s something too in the bible about fearing God.
Additionally, there is something extremely fearful in both Arthur Schopenhauer’s conceptualization of the Full Feeling of Sublime – Overpowering turbulent Nature. (Pleasure from beholding very violent, destructive objects) & the Fullest Feeling of Sublime – Immensity of Universe’s extent or duration. (Pleasure from knowledge of observer’s nothingness and oneness with Nature)and Rudolf Otto’s concept of the numinous, which comprises terror (Tremendum) but also a strange fascination (Fascinans).
There’s no way that a coronavirus is going to cause the collapse of the biosphere — not that that’s what you’re insinuating.
· The virus: relatively nothing to fear. The effective survival rate from contracting this infection is 100%, i.e. the effective death rate of 0.004% (probably at least an order of magnitude less when you account for the science of quantitative analysis being flouted) rounded to the closest whole number is 0%
· Economic collapse: massive human suffering and death. Probably a population crash. The effective survival rate? Maybe 10%. Who knows?
· The collapse of the biosphere: human extinction. Survival rate 0%
· The collapse of one’s certainty in the existence of the sublime and/or the numinous: moot.

newestbeginning
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

Hardly seems to be a point in discussing anything with you folks because in your zeal to make your points, you do not engage honestly by addressing what is said. IOW, there is no point in wasting time talking to what amounts to a brick wall.

What strikes me as really bizarre about the “arguments” you and your fellow conspiracy theorists make – is your single minded quest to end the shelter in place and GET THOSE POOR FOLKS BACK TO WORK immediately, knowing that a return to unsafe working conditions puts workers, their families and communities at risk. Instead of demanding that employers step up to ensure that workplaces are safe, you are silent on that point because it does not fit the right wing (ruling class) agenda you are pushing.

In doing this, YOU are arguing that the working class is disposable.

The virus has killed 16% of the souls who were infected and whose cases were reported as resolving through death or recovery. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Maxwell
Максуел
Преди 9 месеца

Give me the specifics on death tolls in Italy. By this I don’t simply mean the published numbers but comparative numbers to other seasons, age specifics, comorbidities etc. If you can’t do so then all of your assessments are of no value.

Tell me what you know of the RT-PCR tests. Cite some specific details to capture the efficacy of this test. If you are unable to do so then all of your calculations on “cases” and/or deaths related to Covid are inaccurate right from the start.

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца

‘Empathy’ is meaningless to them.
No (fake) ‘logic’ in it.

Btw, you’ll notice on gravedigger how they’ve made a running joke out of the crises; actually mocking the sick and suffering. Pathetic.

That’s where that type of libertarianism reveals itself to be the worst kind of reactionary tendency.

*Edited

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Колективист

наистина ли?

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 1 година
Отговор на  сабяла

The overall commentary . . .

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 1 година
Отговор на  Колективист

is making fun of pandemic believers, and tests . not people being ill/dying.

newestbeginning
Преди 1 година
Отговор на  Колективист

When F and F proudly proclaimed that she joined with her fellow open n.zis, Proud Boys and armed mercenaries to protest stay at home in Michigan – and no one challenged her – that spoke volumes. If you are going “there”, it is only a hop, skip and jump to mocking the sick and suffering.

“What these protesters are fighting for is the right for white people to do whatever we want and to go back to our “normal” lives of living on the backs of African and colonized people for the last 600 years, arrogantly expecting them to serve and meet our needs for us.”

https://www.theburningspear.com/2020/04/White-people-protest-for-returning-to-normal-colonialism?fbclid=IwAR1p-LUMHqNWHCshpHZP9kBX46nQjdtF8TxZtuMi0n33rBKgYfyaJtOEaVY#.XrlCTfvGmFo.facebook

They might as well admit what “they” are “fighting” for – under the thin pretense of “concern” for the (underling) poor is “me first to hell with everyone else”.

Interestingly, I am unaware of participation in protests demanding access to healthcare, safe working conditions, access to affordable housing and food security. I must have missed all of that “activism”. ‘o/’

FaunaAndFlora
Фауна и Флора
Преди 9 месеца

Is that why a black man and a gay man were invited to address the anti-lockdown demonstrations in Michigan? The people at those demonstrations are the working class. You know, those people all you faux socialists claim to care so much about. You really are an ass.

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Фауна и Флора

Ben Carson and Lindsay Graham?

Опитай пак . . .

newestbeginning
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Фауна и Флора

Sounds like Trump planting “his” token black man behind him at his rallies.

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца

Абсолютно.

“Oh, there’s my (1) African American. Over there.
Come on down!

newestbeginning
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Колективист

Hey don’t sell the guy short; he’s got his (1) African American woman too – Candace stepped up after the opportunist, Omarosa, stepped down!

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Фауна и Флора

The people at those demonstrations are the working class.

That’s not a good enough answer for that gal and her ilk.

Elizabeth Hayes
Елизабет Хейс
Преди 9 месеца

When F and F proudly proclaimed that she joined with her fellow open n.zis, Proud Boys and armed mercenaries to protest stay at home in Michigan – and no one challenged her – that spoke volumes.

Bullcrap. F&F realizes something that you’ll deny: most on the right are none of those things, but many are standing up against totalitarianism, while too many on the left are just begging for it.

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Елизабет Хейс
sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Колективист

i’m not sure our libraries will even reopen 🙁

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

I miss the library too.
One of my favorite places.

newestbeginning
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Колективист

last time I went into a library, there were hardly any books. It was surreal – mostly just computers.

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца

Fortunately, Governor Bashear has been hesitant to completely and quickly ‘open’ the state. If you’ve been following the ‘news’ Kentucky has been one of the last states to end the (partial) shutdown. Locally, we (activists) have been collectively launching e-mails to the governor’s office, encouraging him not to give into the pressure, esp. when, he continues to report infections and deaths, in his daily media updates.

A few weeks ago he instructed the police to take down license plate numbers of those who openly defied his directive to maintain social (physical) distancing by having in-person church services.

Also, reactionaries have rallied at the capitol. (No doubt, financed by ‘capital’):

https://youtu.be/wPSRsqepttY

newestbeginning
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Колективист

Good for you, C.

Darwin award candidates for sure. “Take off your masks!” And using it as an excuse to deny woman’s rights – while screaming for the “right” to behave socially irresponsibly and risk the health of other people. Those people are nuts.

Amazing how a few fringe lunatics can “force” states to alter policies adopted for the purpose of public health. Of course it is financed and pushed by capital and right wingers.

https://news.yahoo.com/us-lockdown-facebook-groups-opposing-092805078.html?.tsrc=jtc_news_index&guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9icmVha2luZ25ld3NhbmRyZWxpZ2lvbi5vbmxpbmUvMjAyMC8wNC8yMS91cy1sb2NrZG93bi10aHJlZS1icm90aGVycy1hcHBlYXItdG8tYmUtYmVoaW5kLW9ubGluZS1uZXR3b3JrLW9mLWZhci1yaWdodC1ndW4tb3duZXJzLWNhbGxpbmctZm9yLXByb3Rlc3RzLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAM69sqW22O04DtcDqPZJbunn6oQja9pF5Y4Q5s5Lh3PryH2zqW7LZajLdyWgcL9S7jhzr7lS9oP6wIBMFS-cNr5naDjg5Ml8JDJVha-E83eF3Q1mLVJoJBb3ASwxY9hUfR3xALQFPMRISAojWyhbyJMmIZL5lb-ZInoC7PmCpk8R

Read this am about a Church that violated California regulations and held services on Mothers day. Next day one of them tested positive so now 180 people who attended the service are under quarantine. Lunatics!

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Колективист

also getting actual books.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Елизабет Хейс

Why are these leftists (advocates for the abolition of private property) begging for totalitarianism? Because they crave the (oppressive and corrupted) power of the Leviathan for themselves.
They’re authoritarians. They’re anti-libertarian.
Me? I want to believe that this is an eventuality: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism#Basis
The elimination of poverty.

Elizabeth Hayes
Елизабет Хейс
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Колективист

As usual, you’re lying out your azz. NOBODY at The Digger is mocking the sick and suffering, you disgusting liar. You can’t link to one instance of such a thing. And those who upvote your lies – NightriderXP1, newestbeginning, Robert, SteelPirate, and of course Cab Driver xxx – are every bit as sleazy and disgusting and dishonest as you.

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Елизабет Хейс

Antibodies, against Libertarianism- Covid:

“. . .We live in a society who is taught that having work is what makes you worthy to live. The decline of holistic education is part of our problem here. It goes deeper. Tying health care to employment and gutting welfare paved the way for our current mentality of work or die. Republican protesters who recklessly protested for their right to work seemed to understand that their party would kill them if they didn’t. The Democratic base was the one under illusions as champions of private health insurance companies and tax cuts for billionaires now claimed concern for those who can’t work.

The system of ruthless capitalism has normalized the mentality held nearly universally that you have to work to have human rights in our society. The number of wars launched in the name of human rights forget that the only reason the United States can claim it doesn’t have human rights violations is because of who it classifies as human. Keep in mind that many of the countries guilty of human rights violations are simply dealing with unemployment rates and resource shortages that result from our own Pentagon who pollutes the world more than any other organization and robs countries of resources by force thereby creating the material condition for endless lack and therefore endless war.

Coronavirus is skyrocketing the unemployment rate. No matter how you cut it there are consequences. A lack of workers and consumers means less profit for big corporations who own both corporate parties which means bailouts for said companies who, like our bankrupt President have mismanaged themselves into the ground because they know they are too big to fail. A lack of workers means unemployment benefits at best which will only chip into the real wages of workers and further divide the electorate as long as the rich stay unaccountable. At worst those out of work will be left for dead. Bernie Sanders fought for some extensions for unemployment but will this be able to last for the potentially multiyear pandemic?

We see some problems arising when all human rights are tied to work. The best try to borrow at tremendous cost to put a band-aid on things but the future is chaotic and uncertain. The economy is collapsing and the one to one relationship of work to life is being put into question. For the moment we have a chance to rearrange our desires.

Why does America have such an allegiance to work? All kinds of sick reasons. Puritan guilt may be at the top of the list. Knowing deep down that all of our destructive glory has been stolen we seek to punish ourselves through work to prove how worthy we are and call everyone who isn’t American lazy. The origin of this country was violent theft, not an honest day of work.

Slaughtering Native Americans simply wasn’t enough. Why couldn’t we just shut up and enjoy what we had stolen? Instead, we had to constantly prove ourselves as harder workers. The phrase ‘work smarter not harder’ is clearly a new age globalist one. We decided to abuse the beautiful land we had stolen rather than care for it. We needed to be bigger and better. We needed to capture and own as much land as we could and bleed it to death rather than develop sustainable practices.

The development of agriculture and private property cannot be underestimated as a general trend. Agriculture asserted that more is better and that any long term plan to sustain life human or otherwise took a back seat to production itself. Private property helped to create this necessary separation between human and earth, between past and future, between living and working. Once you own something the mutual dependence vanishes and one party is used and abused until it is no longer useful to the other. . .”

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/05/15/rearranging-desires-amidst-climate-catastrophe-covid-chaos-and-capitalist-calamity/

Elizabeth Hayes
Елизабет Хейс
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Колективист

Sending me a long quote does not change the fact that you were outright lying, which your buddies Nightrider and newestbeginning totally approve of and upvote. Again. Scumbags all.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Елизабет Хейс

Lyin’ fer Leftism.
I guess it’s “strategic”.
“Scumbags” cannot ever seem to even recognize their wrongdoings, much less make amends for them. That includes this lie — “you’ll notice on gravedigger how they’ve made a running joke out of the crises; actually mocking the sick and suffering” — and upvoting the lie and the liar.

Elizabeth Hayes
Елизабет Хейс
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

Yeah, everyone tells me what a great guy Collectivist is. Sure, as long as you don’t disagree with him in the least. Then he turns into the most dishonest, vengeful scumbag on Disqus. All too typical for someone with his “woke” Antifa bad joke ideology.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Елизабет Хейс

I don’t understand this entire “woke” stuff.
Either I’m not “woke” myself so as to understand “woke-ness”, or there’s plenty of fake “woke-ness”. Caitlin Johnstone, who I generally respect for her writing, refers to her version of “woke-ness”, but I guess it’s beyond me.
My initial reaction to “woke-ness” is the cognitive bias of illusory superiority.
Cognitive biases are generally well enough understood to have dialogues about.
“Woke-ness”? It just seems extremely fishy to me.
The cognitive bias of illusory superiority seems to explain a lot of the behavior of “woke” leftists and how proficient they are at divining fake leftists and reactionaries and those who don’t toe the party line and useful idiots.

Elizabeth Hayes
Елизабет Хейс
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

Caitlin Johnstone refers to herself as woke, but from what I’ve learned of the ideology behind it given its present meaning, I haven’t seen much in the way of its earmark in her writing. The people doing the most involved critique of woke/identity politics/critical social justice ideology are the Sokal Square/grievance studies affair writers. Helen Pluckrose probably lays it out most clearly at a basic level: https://areomagazine.com/2018/09/25/identity-politics-does-not-continue-the-work-of-the-civil-rights-movements/

Part of the problem in communicating with people who hold the “woke” terminology lies in terminology; they use words and you think you know what they mean, but they mean something quite different, which is why James Lindsay is compiling an encyclopedia of what the terms mean in woke-speak: https://newdiscourses.com/translations-from-the-wokish/

Another problem is that the whole woke thing has essentially turned into a cult, and like all cults, there is no questioning its “truths,” so no arguments or debates are permitted. Those are heresies.

A third problem is that these people really mean well.

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Елизабет Хейс

Sadly, there have even been ‘bonafide’ intellectuals, like yourself, who objectively, if not subjectively, promote anti-intellectualism:

https://youtu.be/mJTxpwiuwd0

Elizabeth Hayes
Елизабет Хейс
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Колективист

You both have no idea what you’re talking about and you’re outright lying. It’s a twofer for Collectivist! Where or where have I ever promoted anti-intellectualism? I’d be waiting till the end of time if I thought you were the least sincere.

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 1 година
Отговор на  Елизабет Хейс

Actually, to be MORE exact, afaics, you promote/encourage, on gravedigger, mostly, PSEUDO-INTELLECTUALISM . . .and you know this.

Most of the regular commenters are poster children for it , along with anti-intellectualism.

“I love the poorly educated” DT

They make him look like a genuis.😎

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Елизабет Хейс

Thanks for the links. I’m sure I’ll appreciate the perspectives of Helen Pluckrose and James Lindsay. How about you? What are your most memorable experiences with others utilizing “woke-speak”?

I do like to depend on myself — in addition to dialogue and reading — to understand such social phenomena as “woke-ness”. Maybe it’s like the libertarian pov. There is the traditional, classical version and then there’s the fcked-up American version. Then there’s the model of the political compass and its rejection by those who ONLY acknowledge the right vs left division. I cannot give much credence at all to those who cannot accommodate the authoritarian-libertarian division as they pay lip service to social hierarchical power relations and social hierarchical power structures and from where & how dominant cultural institutions receive funding.

Part of this trusting in myself is better learning critical thinking skills. “Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action.” Quite comprehensive, eh?

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Елизабет Хейс

And those who upvote your lies – NightriderXP1, newestbeginning, Robert, SteelPirate, and of course Cab Driver xxx – are every bit as sleazy and disgusting and dishonest as you.

Sad but true. They have a sick and twisted fetish with that blogspot site on which you moderate.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца

The virus has killed 16% of the souls who were infected and whose cases were reported as resolving through death or recovery.

That’s being argued. You’re taking that statistic at face value. You’re not taking into account all of the irregularities in deaths being counted as Covid-19 deaths, i.e. (1) “note the extensive amount of detail in flu reporting for twenty years- now next to nothing” (@disqus_Ldnj57i6PQ:disqus) and (2) reporting seasonal flu deaths and pneumonia deaths and non-Covid-19 acute respiratory infection deaths and chronic upper respiratory disease deaths as Covid-19 deaths — completely flouting how statistics are gathered and completely flouting established quantitative analysis methods.

Coming to terms with these irregularities and thrashing them out is the dialectical approach. Taking worldometers as gospel isn’t.

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

can’t fathom it! and while i agree that black people could not afford such protests/would risk their lives doing anything even without weapons, that does not negate the need for them.

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  сабяла

Most of us — including myself — cannot fathom social breakdown aka economic or financial collapse.
That’s the problem with the unknown.
If it’s inconceivable, then the assumption is it cannot happen.
It’s pretty arrogant to believe that reality (or a realistic future scenario) is dependant on an animal’s ability to conceive it.

sabelmouse
сабяла
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

както винаги.

Maxwell
Максуел
Преди 9 месеца

What statistics?

newestbeginning
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Максуел

the statistics you and your brethren claim to seek of course.

Unbelievable, Maxwell, the shill for the ruling class you have become. Put the workers back to work in packing plants despite the fact they put their lives at risk! No biggie. Right?

Amazing that the likes of you would dare to smear TA and then go on to shill for business as usual in an echo chamber of like minded capitalist shills

поздравления

Maxwell
Максуел
Преди 9 месеца

Well where are your statistics? I’ve never seen you post any- not once- put up or shut up.

Cab Driver xxx
Cab Driver xxx
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Максуел

Liar.

Guest
гост
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Cab Driver xxx

You still looking around in here hack

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Максуел

The idea of “statistics” from @newestbeginning:disqus comes from worldometer. “The virus has killed 16% of the souls who were infected and whose cases were reported as resolving through death or recovery. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.”
Irrefutable, eh?
How do you challenge worldometer as a source?

newestbeginning
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Mensch59

Classy…/s

Mensch59
Mensch59
Преди 9 месеца

@disqus_Ldnj57i6PQ:disqus educated you as to how to critically analyze worldometers as a source.
Did any of his posts to you register? Or would you rather stay in the mindset that those who skeptically challenge the lethality of BOTH covid-19 AND the lockdown / shelter-in-place / the quasi-quarantine in countries practicing draconian social-physical distancing are shills for billionaires and totalitarians?

newestbeginning
Преди 1 година
Отговор на  Mensch59

Noted is your dripping elitist condescension. Good grief, man, can you write a post these days without virtue signaling to your new idol (recently your former bitter enemy), Maxwell? What the hell happened to you, Mensch?

What or who the hell has gotten to your “thinking’, man to be pushing the antisocial right wing agenda in service to business as usual and the ruling class?

About the statistics, the flu statistics are not required to be reported so numbers will not be accurate, but this year’s flu stats are not out of line with previous years – if you would look at your own links.

You, no doubt, feel “safe” from the virus being isolated where you are. The rest of us are not. Workers in packing plants forced to work in unsafe conditions. Employers being instructed to inform on any employees who refuse to report to work because of unsafe work conditions so their UI benefits can be terminated. Where is your voice on that, Mensch?

Crickets is what I hear.

Cab Driver xxx
Cab Driver xxx
Преди 9 месеца

“Could be nothing more than coincidence, but the end result of the virus scare seems to mesh nicely with the policies being pushed by the climate crowd.“

– Flora & Fauna

И там го имате.
“The climate crowd.” If Max had something at all credible to say, he’d have to first put sht like this in the trash. He won’t and he doesn’t.

Collectivist
Колективист
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Cab Driver xxx

Astute.

The ? is: why not?

Those who acknowledge capitalogenic climate disruption are the problem?

The deniers – and rightwing libertarians – are his allies now?

Politics indeed makes for strange bedfellows.😎

newestbeginning
Преди 9 месеца
Отговор на  Cab Driver xxx

Yeah… weird as hell.

Cab Driver xxx